Julia Sweeney's Discussion Forum

hope i am commenting on Go of God
I have not yet had the pleasure of seeing the show, but I appreciate her take on the issue (based on the comments I read here). As a former evangelical christian (and daughter of a pastor), my road to atheism was a long and painful one. Now, I tend to be ultra-passionate in my trashing of religion. It's hard for me to feel compassion for christians when their beliefs are so terribly destructive. It affects our mental and physical health, our IQ, and even the future of the earth (christians looking forward to armageddon will not be motivated to make the world a better place - the sooner they can destroy the earth, the sooner they can meet Jay-sus). Having been forced to suspend disbelief; terrorized into believing based on Tim LaHaye's "left behind" series, punished for questioning obvious absurdities, literal interpretations of the bible that damn women and children to a life of hell here on earth (one needs to look no further than the evangelical kingpin James Dobson, who openly advocated for BEATING CHILDREN BETWEEN THE AGES OF 18 MONTHS AND 12 YEARS!!!! How many children have been abused in the name of god????...I could go on and on. Bottom line, I am not, as yet, feeling very forgiving toward christians. Maybe I will be able to empathasize better with christians after seeing Julia's show. But I won't hold my breath. My goal is forgiveness - I realize that as long as I hold anger toward christians, I am still allowing it to control me; and that I am not so unlike christians themselves whose beliefs are based on anger and fear. So are mine, to be honest. Anger at being raised christin; anger at how the evangelicals got W bush elected TWICE - just enough time for him to destroy the country in the name of faith in god; fear that christians will keep a stranglehold on public policy to the detriment of all of us.

I can relate a little bit to your feelings. I was not raised by evangelical parents (which made leaving the church much easier for me, I'm sure) but I am a former evangelical myself. I became a christian in high-school, and was very involved in Campus Crusade during college only to end up on staff with that organization for a few years. Ministry is what forced me to look at my beliefs objectively for the first time. And it was a painful process. It's been over 15 years now since I ditched my beliefs (though it, like Julia's, was a gradual process that included lots of searching). I've been through many phases--including the really angry one. I'm still annoyed at christianity and can be at christians, but I don't tend to get as angry anymore. Partly because I'm further away from my experience and partly because I am more convinced I'm right and they're wrong.

I hope your letting go of god process has not caused major family problems (though I'd guess it has). I don't know what I can say except that you aren't alone in your feelings! There are quite a few of us (ex-christians) out here.

Welcome to the board. And do listen to or watch "Letting Go of God." There's something very soothing about Julia's presentation that might give you a refreshing perspective. Take care.

I highly recommend seeing the show. (Which reminds me, I need to order the DVD, since I've only heard it and not seen it.) Even if you are still full of anger, I think you'd like it and get a lot out of it. I'm a PK of an evangelical pastor as well. It's been about 25 years since I stopped considering myself a Christian. Most of the intervening years I considered myself an agnostic, and only for the last four or five years, have I labeled myself an atheist.

FWIW, I'm inclined to see Christians as ill. They are infested with an insidious meme-plex which causes actual physical brain damage, on an ongoing basis. The longer someone has suffered from this illness, the less hope for recovery there is. I think that there was a lot of luck involved in my escaping the effects at a relatively early age, but the damage is lasting and anger about it is perfectly understandable, and comes up repeatedly all these years later. These days though, I realize it's the meme-plex that is truly vile, and Christians just the unwitting hosts. There but for the fortuity of my circumstances go I.

On the child abuse issue, I can certainly relate. Dobson's a pussycat. My father spanked me till I was black and blue when I was six months old, because I wouldn't stop crying. (Apparently it was my sinful nature causing me to cry.) When I comprehended that... (My father had confessed to it several years earlier, but at that time I didn't have the psychological resources to cope with the information, and I put it out of my mind.) I stayed away from my father altogether for six months, out of fear that I would utterly destroy him if we were face to face. I can understand rage.

I also understand that achieving the capacity for empathy towards Christians gives you power. Not only self control, but power over their perceptions of things. The biggest thing that lead to my escaping Christianity was having a friend who I could see was 'more Christian' than any Christians I knew, yet who didn't believe. We social primates are, by nature, xenophobic towards those we see as being outside our social group. However, the capacity for empathy, and expression of appreciation of the humanity of a Christian I am talking to, can allow getting past the US-vs-THEM radar that's always on the lookout in all of us. When the US-vs-THEM alarm is going off, virtually no meeting of the minds can occur.



IMO, the fear is justified and valuable, because it keeps us vigilant to the dangers. But at the same time, I think that there is a lot of reason for optimism. I've been debating theists (Mostly Christians) on the Internet for years now. I've seen a lot of changes in attitudes over those years, and after the last eight years, many Christians have become disillusioned with Christianity. Discussing things with Christians on the internet can change viewpoints too, and it can most effectively change the viewpoints of those whose viewpoints matter most - knowledgeable, intelligent, and confident Christians - whose voices have more effect than those of people less knowledgeable, intelligent and confident.

These days I'm mostly at theologian William Lane Craig's forum. There are some very intelligent Christians there, and I figure that influencing the viewpoint of people there is particularly valuable, because it's one of the high points in the world of evangelical apologetics. (Influence can trickle down from there.)

IME, to have much influence on viewpoints in an enviromnent like WLC's forum, you have to be able to meet knowledge, intelligence, and confidence, with at least equal amounts of same. (I tend to be viewed as incredibly arrogant by many there, but I also earn the respect of a lot of the Christians, whom the other Christians look up to.) In addition to knowledge, intelligence, and confidence though, you've got to have the capacity to show empathy, and allow for Christians to earn your respect, and be prepared to show it as it's earned, and that takes empathy. I do a fair amount of 'social experimentation' in these settings, and this is what seems to work for my anyway. A huge advantage we atheists have, is that our brains aren't half crippled by trying to continuously rationalize Christian beliefs, throw on top of that, beliefs based on empirical evidence, and it's an awfully powerful combination.

Anyway, I'm not really trying to recruit anyone to engage in this kind of thing. I'm just wanting to point out things I've seen, about what works. I've got mixed feelings about it myself. I do think there is social value in doing it in the long run, but at the same time, I wish I didn't have such powerful motivation to do it, at the expense of lots of other things I could be doing.